Welcome once and again to week six of Reading The Wheel of Time. In this installment, I’m going to cover Chapters 21 through 23, and I’m really excited because we’re moving into chapters that are told from different characters’ points of view. And I have to say, I am really enjoying the change in perspective. Rand is a fine character, but I haven’t felt very connected to him, at least since the group left the Two Rivers. I’m really enjoying the shake up, and it feels like the story is broadening as the perspectives do. I hope we eventually get to spend time with each of our heroes.
Chapter 21 finds dawn awakening Nynaeve and her horse as they sleep near the bank of the Arinelle. Nynaeve is cross with herself for falling asleep, thinking that she could have “awakened in a Trolloc cook pot,” but as she thinks back over the harrowing events of the night before she remembers being eventually cornered by Trollocs, only to have them sniff the air around her and then move off. Nynaeve has to admit that this must mean that Moiraine was right about the enemy being after the boys, specifically. Not knowing where any of the others ended up, Nynaeve scans the far bank but sees nothing to indicate that the Two Rivers folk or anyone else are nearby, so she sets off down her side of the river hoping to come across someone, if anyone else survived. Using her skills as a tracker she scans the ground for signs of the party, but has difficulty telling if their marks are anywhere amongst the tracks of the Trollocs. Eventually, however, she smells smoke, and decides to approach it, cautiously in case it’s the enemy’s fire instead of her friends. She sneaks up to the encampment, but sure enough, she finds Lan and Moiraine, together with their horses. As Nynaeve sits hidden in the bushes, she listens to Lan and Moiraine discuss the Trollocs and learns that they are very concerned about how so many Trollocs were able to arrive in the area and disappear again just as mysteriously. She also learns that Moiraine is aware of where the boys went, that one is across the river and the other two have traveled down it, but that the trail there has faded because “the bond had been broken”. Moiraine begins to talk about how desperate she is to find the boys again and mentions that she anticipates some resistance from some of the other Aes Sedai, but then breaks off, straightening up and looking straight at Nynaeve in her hiding place.
Discovered, Nynaeve immediately goes on the offensive, accusing Moiraine of getting the boys involved in some “filthy Aes Sedai” plot, but Moiraine simply responds that Nynaeve can wield the One Power herself. Nynaeve is sharply resistant to the suggestion, but Moiraine wears her down slowly, pointing out that an Aes Sedai can sense another user of the power, hence her awareness that Nynaeve was nearby or her ability to know Nynaeve was the village Wisdom without being told. She talks of Nynaeve’s incredible skill at healing, at understanding the weather and predicting seasons and crop harvests–listening to the wind, the Wisdoms call it, but Moiraine knows it is the power of Water and Air. She talks, too, of Nynaeve’s ability to sense the same ability in Egwene, and finally she is able to describe an event of Nynaeve’s life so precisely that Nynaeve can no longer deny the truth, however much she tries. She admits to having a connection to Egwene after healing the girl from “breakbone fever” when they were both young. A week later she briefly collapsed with a fever and chills, but that passed quickly.
Moiraine explains that while some women who touch the Power on their own do learn a sort of rudimentary control over it, three out of four never learn it without help, and those who cannot are eventually killed by the reactions to accidentally touching the True Source. That is why Moiraine wanted to take Egwene to Tar Valon with them, and she tries to encourage Nynaeve to consider becoming an Aes Sedai as well, but Nynaeve, however forced she is to admit to her abilities, recoils from the idea. She asks Moiraine not to tell anyone about Nynaeve’s gift, and then returns to the subject of Mat and Rand and Perrin. But Moiraine only repeats that the Dark One wants the boys and therefore she opposes him getting them. She suggests that she doesn’t believe that Nynaeve will come with them, but Nynaeve angrily insists that Moiraine cannot drive her away. As Lan packs and fetches Nynaeve’s horse from where she left it, Nynaeve and Moiraine have another argument, this time about which of the Emond’s Fielders to search for. Moiraine explains that the coins she gave the boys created a sort of bond between her and them, allowing her to know if they have been killed and to locate them. Nynaeve asks why she isn’t going to look for the boy across the river, or for Egwene who is also missing. When Moiraine insists that following the boys south, the ones who have apparently lost their coins, is the most logical course, as they are clearly the ones in need of help, Nynaeve becomes angry. The argument goes much the same as the argument Moiraine had with the Two Rivers folk after leaving Baerlon, with Moiraine’s calm logic and determination to take the course best able to continue her fight against the Dark One winning out, and Nynaeve struggling in the face of the possible consequences of the difficult decision. She turns away, trying to hide tears as she contemplates that she may not be able to save all her charges, and is disgruntled when Lan sees them. They depart together, Nynaeve doing her best to hide both her fear and her anger, but determined that she will make Moiraine pay if Egwene or even one of the boys comes to harm.
Meanwhile, Perrin wakes up in woods on the far side of the river, cold and hungry and worried about Egwene. Deciding that he doesn’t have time to look for food or even to make a fire to dry his clothes by, he sets off down river, careful to keep behind cover so that he isn’t spotted by any Trollocs that might have been lingering on the other bank. Eventually he comes across hoof prints he recognizes, and follows them to find Egwene by a fire she has made under a large tree, safe from prying eyes. She has managed to keep her horse and supplies, and she gets him warm and gives him some bread and cheese to eat. They try to decide what to do next, and Perrin suggests that it doesn’t make sense to wait and see if Moiraine can find them, since they have no way of knowing if she or anyone else is still alive. He’s surprised when Egwene defers to his judgement, but he decides that they should cut away from the river that would lead them to Whitebridge and go cross-country to reach Caemlyn. This way he hopes to avoid any Trollocs and Fades pursuing them, and to encounter a farm or someone to give them directions along the way. And if Moiraine doesn’t find them in Caemlyn they will go on to Tar Valon on their own. Egwene makes a point of rationing the remaining bread and cheese, since it might have to last them some time, and then the two set off on their new path.
Egwene continues to defer to Perrin’s leadership–to a point, anyway. They argue about taking turns riding Bella, and Perrin reflects that leaders in the stories were never bullied. The first night Perrin manages to catch a rabbit, but when he brings it back to Egwene for cooking, he learns that she does not have a flint to light a fire, and had in fact used the One Power the night before, although now she can’t seem to find the ability again. Perrin is upset, and tries to make her promise not to use the Power ever again, but Egwene refuses, likening such a promise to Perrin giving up his axe or walking around with one hand tied behind his back. She continues to try every night, although without any more success.
They also don’t have any more success hunting rabbits or finding a farm to ask directions at, and wander hungry and worried as Perrin is plagued by nightmares of Ba’alzamon chasing him through mazes. He hides the nightmares from Egwene. Eventually they happen across the scent of someone cooking rabbit, and approach cautiously. Egwene isn’t sure caution is needed, but Perrin makes her wait while he scouts ahead to see who is there. He discovers a strange figure roasting rabbits over his fire, a lean tan man dressed in animal skins and furs, and although it seems impossible for him to see Perrin (his eyes are even closed) he knows that Perrin is there immediately and invites both him and Egwene to come eat. He introduces himself as Elyas Machera, and as they shake hands Perrin is shocked to see that Elyas’s eyes are yellow. But despite the man’s strangeness and the fact that he admits that he has been watching Perrin and Egwene for two days, the two are hungry enough to overlook almost anything. Until the wolves arrive. Elyas introduces four large wolves as his friends, and says that he can communicate with them, and Perrin recognizes that Elyas’s yellow eyes are just like the wolves’. Elyas explains that the ability used to exist between men and wolves, who hunted together, although it was so long ago that even the wolves barely remember it. He says the wolves found him, recognizing the ability in him before he knew about it himself. And he says that Perrin also has the same ability.
When Perrin and Egwene tell him the carefully constructed and rehearsed tale of who they are and where they are going, Elyas informs them that the wolves say their story is all lies, and things get tense with the wolves until Perrin relents and tells the truth. Elyas tells them he doesn’t care for Aes Sedai and suggests that they stay with him, that even Egwene is welcome. But Perrin insists that they must continue on to Caemlyn. One of the wolves, called Burn by Elyas, doesn’t like the idea of getting any closer to humans or consorting with anyone mixed up with Trollocs, but the leader, a female called Dapple, communicates with the others and with Elyas that they will all travel with Perrin and Egwene and guide them to their destination. All the time, Perrin tells himself that he has no such ability to talk to wolves, but he also finds that he can tell which is which, and sense their feelings.
Apparently this is an unpopular opinion, but I think Nynaeve might be my favorite character at this point. I’m the oldest of my siblings, and so the fact that Nynaeve is not much older than Egwene and Rand and Perrin and Mat and yet is in an important position as caretaker and guardian over them is something that really resonates with me. Rand might view Nynaeve as bossy and intimidating (in a bad way), but even in the beginning of the book, I got a sense of Nynaeve as being very dedicated and passionate about the people in her charge. She might insist that following the missing youths all the way to Baerlon is what any Wisdom would do, but I’m not so sure. Her special connection to Egwene explains her choice to go herself rather than send some of the men of the village, but it’s clear that Nynaeve feels a very specific and personal responsibility for each and every person in the Two Rivers. And I think this might be some of the struggle she is having in accepting Moiraine. When she argues with Moiraine during the flight from Baerlon and again when the decision is made to follow the river and not look for Egwene or the boy they know is across the river, it can seem like the Wisdom is being childish or naive. But we have seen that Nynaeve does have the ability to face hard truths, such as her attitude when she realizes that she does not have the ability to heal Tam. Instead, the differences between these two women is one of perspective. Nynaeve’s charge is every person in her village. Moiraine’s charge is not actually people, but the Light itself, and she must choose a path that serves that responsibility effectively, however she might care about the people she encounters. I think Nynaeve will have a lot to learn as her story continues, but I wonder what path her journey will take. Will her focus always be on individual people above all? Or will she, knowing that she has the Power and the ability to be an Aes Sedai, develop a more Moiraine-like perspective?
I am curious about the bond between Nynaeve and Egwene. It seems from what Moiraine says that this type of connection happens frequently. Do all Aes Sedai become connected to anyone they heal this way? Does Nynaeve have a similar connection with other people in the village, and for that matter, is Moiraine connected to Tam now? If not, what are the parameters for establishing such a bond? It seems like too many of these connections could hamper Moiraine’s ability to keep her broader, more objective perspective. Are any Aes Sedai reticent to use their abilities to heal because of this effect? If I’m honest, I’m a bit of a sucker for magical/spiritual connections between people, like the ones Jedi masters have with their padawans. But if Nynaeve has this connection with Egwene that allowed her to find the Stag and Lion so easily, how can she not find Egwene now? It seems like Egwene (and Perrin) are not very far away across the river yet, so Nynaeve should be able to use the same ability to track Egwene again!
Possible plot hole aside, in these chapters, both Nynaeve and Perrin are asked to face something about themselves that they are not ready to accept. In contrast to Egwene’s discovery of her own ability and her excitement over learning to be an Aes Sedai, Nynaeve’s reaction is one of anger and fear, and Perrin’s is incredulous and untrusting. But it’s unclear at this point exactly what Perrin’s hesitation about his ability is. It could be because the idea of communicating with wolves is so outside of anything in his experience, or perhaps because the talent just seems too close to the powers of the Aes Sedai, which Perrin, like everyone except Egwene, is highly suspicious of. But it might also have something to do with the way Perrin thinks of himself, and the way others seem to see him. In Chapter 22, Perrin thinks about how he is used to people reacting with surprise when he claims to have an idea, because “even when his ideas were as good as theirs, they always remembered how deliberate he was in thinking of them.” And it’s clear that while Perrin might not think that reaction is fair, he does consider himself to be slower and more deliberate than others. A miraculous power to communicate with wolves through what appears to be some kind of wordless thought and emotional transfer might fly very much in the face of what Perrin understands about himself. He kind of bounces off the idea, skirting the edges of acknowledgement of his ability to read the wolves but never really spending much thought on it.
Nynaeve’s attitude to being told about her gift is a much more deliberate rejection. As a queer person, it’s impossible for me not to draw a parallel between Nynaeve’s reaction and my own struggle with my personal identity. I can perfectly imagine Nynaeve, as a young apprentice Wisdom, having a sense of something different about herself, a feeling that she shies away from recognizing. Since magic is viewed in her part of the world as being problematic at best and a connection to the Dark One at worst, it is something that she feels is wrong and evil. It is a form of self protection to avoid recognizing her ability for what it is; meanwhile she manages to learn a sort of control over it without ever consciously analyzing or accepting that feeling. She has lived that way for years, maybe longer, and in that time the ability has occasionally resurfaced, which means she has had to tamp down on a conscious acknowledgement of it again and again. That kind of self-denial takes a toll, and now she has been caught and called out so effortlessly by Moiraine, a person of power, and one who has knowledge of the world far beyond Nynaeve’s. Her reaction, to accuse Moiraine of lying, to struggle against the truth and suspect a trick, are the last ditch efforts of that self-protective denial, and while her spitting hatred of Moiraine can make her unsympathetic to the reader, in many ways she feels more human, more like a three-dimensionally developed character, than any of the others do to me thus far. Rand has been our point-of-view character for nearly 300 pages, but the only time I have related to him this deeply is in his love for his father and struggle to understand the true circumstances of his birth. I’ve only been in Nynaeve’s head for one chapter and I feel like I understand her perfectly.
I also understand her misreading of Lan and Moiraine’s intentions. At the most vulnerable she has been probably in all of her adult life, Nynaeve’s instinct to read Lan’s surprise as derision and Moiraine’s observations as a trick or attack makes a certain amount of sense. She already doesn’t trust Moiraine for reasons that are actually kind of fair; granted, the suspicion of Aes Sedai does seem to be rooted in a good deal of prejudice, but Moiraine and Lan did secretly take several young villagers away from their homes and families in the middle of the night. And while Moiraine presents herself as the calm, logical one and Nynaeve does have a temper, the Aes Sedai has a great deal of knowledge that Nynaeve, through no fault of her own, cannot have. And the Moiraine keeps those cards very close to the vest. I myself have this personal failing where, if I’m feeling vulnerable or bad about myself I also assume that everyone is thinking the worst of me. It’s hard to have perspective in moments like that, and I appreciated the real humanity I felt from Nynaeve as a character in that moment. Having her break down a little in front of me has made me root for her.
There are some interesting adventures ahead for us next week, dear readers! Including learning more about the effects of the One Power on new users, and the fate of that golden dagger from Mordeth’s hoard. Next week, we’ll be covering Chapters 24-26.
In the meantime, please join us down in the comments and as always, please white out your spoilers! If you don’t, you won’t get the fun of watching me ask a hundred questions you already know the answers to.
Sylas K Barrett lives in Brooklyn and in books, and dares you to say “naive Nynaeve” three times fast.
Nynaeve is also one of my favorites, for many reasons (some spoilerish) but especially as a physician her persistent allergies have always intrigued me. That woman sniffs and tugs her hair more than anyone I know…
Nynaeve and passion, heh.
And did I seriously never connect the assorted issues of discovering one can channel with coming out? Guh. This is the problem with starting a series as a kid. You can miss the most obvious subtext.
I love the craftsmanship in the Nynaeve chapter, such as the little bit at the end where Lan is interacting with her and pauses in saying her name, as if she imagines him now referring to her in his head as Nynaeve Sedai. Great character moment. Also, great contrast with Egwene in the next chapter who is not reluctant at all in accessing the One Power. Sets up new character arcs for the two Duopotamian power users going forward.
Excellent commentary! It’s amazing how quickly you are able to put your finger on the essential dynamics of the character’s personalities. Nynaeve is absolutely my favorite female character for all the reasons you describe, and moving forward, she is involved in most of my favorite scenes in the books. Starting with Lan’s surprise, in this section, that she was able to both track them and sneak up on him undetected. We come to see that from the stoic Lan, this reaction is indeed the highest of praise. You’re right on with Perrin as well. Being the biggest and strongest has made him deliberate so as not to harm others with his strength and as with Nynaeve’s concern for individuals, this will also continue to define him.
As to another important point you raise, without spoilers, it’s good to keep in mind that we are at the beginning of a long journey. Statements made, even from person’s of authority, may or may not turn out to be as valid as they believe. That’s all I can say about that.
Nynaeve is one of The Best Girls. ( Min is the Best Girl, but that’s neither here nor there)
Lan just loves competent women.
About possible plot hole. Yeah, I’m pretty sure the whole healing link thing never gets brought up again.
@6 this is one reason I liked Nynaeve as well. She may be brash, and have a temper, but she is confident, strong, and knows what she is doing. I like that she is determined, skilled, and loyal to her friends.
@7 – Steve Erickson fans have the concept of Gardens of the Moon-isms that certain attributes identified in the first book in the Malazan series get dropped or changed as the series continues. We can all keep an eye out for EOTW-isms as we go forward in the books. Best not to lay them all out now, for spoiler reasons, but some should become apparent over time.
One thing you may miss during your first read is how some things are said to one character in one chapter that are hints to what is going on with another character in subsequent chapters. Remember all Moraine tells Nynaeve about her starting to channel when you read some of Rand’s chapters later. Even though men and women are different when it comes to channeling, some of the “symptoms” of channeling are pretty similar. [Potentially spoiler-adjacent; roll over to read]
Also we are now introduced to the third adult male character who parallels one of our young men, at least in some regards. Elyas is most clearly and most directly a parallel to Perrin. Note how the dominant matriarchal society treated him for his “special’ abilities. Thom is less clearly, but still I think an object lesson for Rand, in that he was (for a time) a powerful man who was purposely brought down, again because he threatened a member of the dominant matriarchy. Finally, Lan is a parallel for Mat, if for no other reason than they could both hashtag #MeToo.
Brent/Moderator – that first paragraph is awful spoilery. Can it be whited out? Thanks.
I read in some comments for previous chapter it’s all going to be about golden three. Nope there are very good character arc for almost all females.and nyneave’s so good..without spoiling much it’s about how she solves her inability to use saidar efficiently. In the process she gets to know something about herself too. It’s such an important moment to the series that they dedicated a cover for that.
May be read the following after 10-15chapters: mildly spoilery
As for the plot hole, again trying to be spoiler free, the golden 3 has special connections to Wot. It may mean that people or things around them can have weird things happen around them. Sometimes it goes for better for them sometimes horribly worse.
Here u will find that Egwene get something like a short vacation. (which won’t be the Case if they were found quickly )
I don’t think it’s unpopular to like Nynaeve- as this comment section should demonstrate! She’s definitely easy to misunderstand, especially early on when she’s presented as an antagonist and held at arm’s length from the reader, but I think everyone ends up loving her. For all that she’s brusque and high-handed, Nynaeve is a very honest and earnest person, with a very genuine compassion. She’s the gruff military doctor, in other words, always scolding her patients. Which is an archetype that is usually gendered male, thinking about it. That might contribute to the confusion- we expect women in caregiving roles to be much more caring and forgiving.
You’ve hit on something important, I think, when you note that you have a much easier time relating to Nynaeve than Innocent Farmboy Rand. There is something abstract and unreal about his naivety here, and it lacks the texture of Mat’s leadfooted ignorance or Perrin’s dour contemplative befuddlement. He reads more like a character in a fable than one appropriate to this story. If I had to guess, I’d say that Jordan had difficulty occupying the character’s mindset and instead approached writing him in a schematic fashion.
@7 definitely think this is one of those things Jordan thought he might pursue, and then decided against later (it starts to sound awfully close to a Bond)
All I can say is that if you like Nynaeve this well already, well, you ain’t seen nothing yet! (She’s my favorite character too, and I’m looking forward to seeing what you make of some of the things she does later on.)
I’ve always thought Nynaeve was a masterwork in characterisation. Of all the characters, she is the one who “changes” the most based on who is reading the book. I started the wheel of Time as a middle schooler in the early 90s. When I reread the series later as a young adult, I had a completely different read on her, and it wasn’t because of things we learn about her in future books. She is pretty consistently characterised throughout the series.
Then, tereading her as a full on adult raising children prior to the release of AMoL, I had an even DIFFERENT read on her in TEotW. The words didn’t change, only my perspective. It’s masterful stuff.
A big part of why Nynaeve is so masterfully characterised is at this point, she’s the only one of our Emond’s Fielders’ who have actual proper character motivation. The other four all get that eventually, but they are just reacting at this point, while Nynaeve is acting.
It is not a plot hole. Nynaeve followed them from the 2 rivers using her tracking skills. Only when she was close enough to the 2 rivers people to sense Egwene does she then find them
The real problem with Nynaeve is that congratulations, you have done an amazing job of understanding her. Now you get to go a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very long time before she gets her moment to directly confront her flaws. Not to say that she is a static character,she will grow and develop throughout, but that “Aha!” Coming of age moment for her takes a while, and until then you will be able to predict the outcome of every interaction involving her with almost perfect accuracy.
I love her, and her passion for caring about individuals serves as a super important foil to Moiraine’s aloof and secret keeping worldview; but her major personality points are both glorious blessings and tedious curses.
In German the book is split after chapter 22, in the English YA edition after chapter 23. The German split makes more sense, it starts the new book with a new plot when Perrin meets the wolves instead of starting that plot and then taking a break. The Ny chapter at the end also starts something new, but it also shows where the rest of the characters are after the party split.
// The Healing bond might be similar to the Aiel adoption. // Ny uses her bond to Eg to find the inn. In the city tracking would be difficult because there are too many people.
I’ll second Anthony Pero in his opinion that Nynaeve is a wonderful piece of characterization.
How I look at her really changed the older I got (and the more of the books I read that added to the character). Although, in all fairness, I still can’t really stand her in the beginning. I just never got people who are offered a chance to learn something so awesome / different like magic and they recoil instead of jumping on it. At least she evolves over the course of the series (slowly, very slowly at some points, but it’s still evolution).
Egwene, on the other hand, followed the perfect opposition to Nynaeve. In the beginning I really liked her behavior and character. And it looked good, then it peaked and then it went downhill fast. And now I just can’t enjoy her as much :(
@21, In this setting discomfort with being able to channel, even if you have the luck to be female, is really understandable. Nobody trusts the Aes Sedai, and not without reason. The Power drives men insane and can even kill women who try to use it. I’d be nervous as heck if somebody told me I was tied to an ill understood power that could KILL me.
I’m reminded of the statement of a Comanche widow to an anthropologist explaining why she didn’t take up her Shaman husband’s power after his death. ‘He wanted me to have it but it was too strong. It could have killed me.’ She had a choice, she didn’t have to take up the power. Nynaeve is told she has none. Ignoring the Power is not an option.
I absolutely love Nyneave. And I didn’t realize it at the time, but the fact that we have a woman character for whom anger is allowed to be one of their main character/plot points is honestly pretty great.
Overall, she’s my favorite character, or perhaps tied with somebody we haven’t seen yet – but that other character actually has a pretty small role overall, but is part of what if my favorite twists of the entire series that pays off way at the end.
I think one of the reason’s it’s easy to dislike Nynaeve in the early going is because her care for the Two Rivers kids doesn’t seem personal, in a lot of ways. Or rather, she takes it personally, because protecting them is her job, and she is insecure enough about her job for other reasons that she needs to compensate, but she doesn’t seem to care for them as individuals (perhaps save Egwene).
To draw a parallel – Cersei Lannister loves her kids, but only because she views them as extensions of herself, and she’s an extreme narcissist. I always got that vibe from early-installment Nynaeve: not the narcissism part, but that fact that she views protecting the kids as part of her job, and she’s desperate to prove herself worthy of her position despite her young age, and not necessarily because she’s super-committed to Rand or Mat or Perrin.
One thing I always appreciated in WOT is that learning how to channel the Power isn’t easy. We have Egwene, Nynaeve, and *coughcoughcough* who have ‘the spark’ born in them, but even then, they’re not flinging spells and hurling fireballs right out of the gate. There might also be some interesting detail, down the road, about different ways that people learn how to channel the power that is endlessly fascinating to me.
@2: Oh, I hear you there. Though I’ve always felt more of a connection and empathy with Nyneave (and certain other ‘IDon’tWantToBeA’ users of the OP that shall currently remain nameless due to potential spoilerisation), I never really considered the reasons in a conscious manner: though that is not the only allegory that can be made to ‘queerness’ in this series. I certainly picked this up with Perrin and the wolves though and, if I’m honest, my journey to self acceptance was much more akin to Perrin’s than those others in many respects. Certainly, Perrin and Nyneave are two of my favourite characters in the entire series ( // despite a certain emo phase on one’s behalf a bit later // ), probably even joint favourites.
@18 – How does she “sense” Egwene? Remember, Nynaeve got to Baerlon (sp?) and went straight to the inn they were staying at. That type of “sense” is a plot hole as it’s never brought up again further in the series.
@23 based on what you said, I wonder if your other favorite character could be “F”? That was my favorite character. I never finished the series (yet; I started again for this reread), so I don’t know what they contribute to the end of the story; I just enjoyed spending time with them.
@23 & @28 … I’m guessing “V” not “F”
“V” is a definite favorite of mine as well!
This is a series I’ve been wanting to read for a while and started with this re-read. It has been a lot of fun reading the book and then reading this read through at the same time. I liked Nynaeve from the start as well, and I’d say she and Rand are my two favourite characters. I just finished Book 2 last night and will buy the 3rd in the next few weeks.
I liked the break in perspective that happened here, even though I like Rand it was good to get some new voices. I especially like getting Perrin’s take on things we’ve already heard Rand’s perspective on — like how they relate to girls.
And we have the third (fourth?) overheard important conversation in the book. On my first read-through I don’t think I ever noticed, but having talked to some people about overused plot points in fiction, I think Jordan might be a bit guilty of using this too much. We all overhear scraps of conversation from time to time, but the number of times and the importance of topics being discussed when they happen to be overheard . . .
Other random thought: It makes sense that being the innkeeper’s daughter and the blacksmith’s apprentice (neither farmers) that Perrin and Egwene would see more of each other than Rand and Mat who are farmers and shepherds living outside of town. Is that ever addressed?
Bonus random thought: How did everyone first pronounce Nynaeve when they read it? For me it was nin-EYE-eve. Just to let you know Kelsey, there was a lot of angst over how names, countries, and the old tongue was pronounced in the old days of fandom.
@2: I’m unsure the subtext was deliberate on Jordan’s part, ///especially given the books’ somewhat faulty portrayal of homosexuality and bisexuality///, but it definitely works as a relatable “coming out” experience. Though I can’t honestly relate it to my experience, since I’ve always lived among LGBT+ people, and didn’t struggle to deny or hide my own biromantic bisexuality after it became obvious to me.
I hear you about Nynaeve feeling more three-dimensional than the others at this point. The boys make big mistakes, but those can largely be attributed to sheltered naivete and extreme lack of caution. Nynaeve’s anger and penchant for mentally creating rivalries between herself and others (e.g. Lan) humanize her, as does her caring so fiercely for the others and wanting to protect them at any cost.
I loved “Wolfbrother.” Wolves are considered monstrous in the Two Rivers not without cause, and here our heroes meet someone who doesn’t deny their predatory nature yet befriends and lives among them. I’m very partial to that sort of thing. ;-)
Poor Perrin, so doubtful of his own intelligence. I bet he would call himself some equivalent of “Dunk the Lunk” if a catchy one existed for his name.
“If the Dark One wants a thing, I oppose it. Can there be a simpler reason, or a better?” Moiraine, you just came from Shadar Logoth and previously confronted Whitecloaks.
“If wishes were wings, sheep would fly.” Heh.
Now I’m amusedly trying to envision Master Luhhan shoeing a Trolloc.
Sad quote of the day: “Hope is like a piece of string when you’re drowning. It just isn’t enough to get you out by itself.”
*facepalm* Kids, you’re telling the story you composed together, to someone who’s been watching you for days. ///And you don’t look Saldaean, but I expect you wouldn’t know that. ///
“Wolves don’t tame, girl, not even as well as men.” Hm.
Spoilery things:
///Moiraine says that no one has been “strong enough” to Travel since the Breaking of the World, and that even if the Forsaken were loose, all of them together probably couldn’t move “a thousand Trollocs” – i.e. they couldn’t make a big enough gateway. It shows that people have forgotten Shadowspawn (except Gholam) can’t survive going through a gateway. When was this rediscovered? Not until Lews used Rand to make Deathgates during the battle in KoD?///
///Elyas thinks Egwene (and Perrin) “wouldn’t like it” in the Aiel Waste. Hahahaha.///
///Perrin recalls that Trolloc eyes are almost black, not golden like Elyas’s. Someone go tell that to the Whitecloaks persecuting him.///
///Haha, you *did* have Darkfriends (one) chasing you.///
Nyneave and Egwene’s connection has more to do with the fact that people who can Channel are naturally drawn together. If there a a hundred women in a room and only two can Channel, and not even realize it, they would be more comfortable with each other than with other women in the room. Usually.
I struggle to understand how a person could not love Nynaeve. The anger, the stubbornness, the sheer unconquerable will; she is the best. And she gets to be both bad ass and hilarious at different times or occasionally the same time.
@33: Oh, I’m convinced any similarity in emotional states between the stresses of coming out as LGBTQ+ and having the ability to wield the OP is entirely coincidental. Whilst some are lucky enough to have a more liberal upbringing, many are not. My own upbringing was decidedly moderate, yet I still suffered for several years with fear and self doubt, based solely on the prejudices of those around me. // Once I understood that and that I need not pander to those prejudices, the rest was easy. Something that resonates through Nynaeve and Rand and even Aviendha’s stories, regardless of if it was Jordan’s intent to mirror ‘coming out’ or not. As I said, I’m sure it was not. //
@35: Totally. The one I can’t understand is people loving Matt. He’s quite simply, the most Light-blinded and infuriating fool in the entire series! // Emo-Perrin was, by far, preferable. // That said // Matt does introduce us to one of my all time favourites: Talmanes. //
The bond that Nyneave has to egwane isn’t so much from healing but the sense of her ability to channel. And Nyneave’s realization that she can channel isn’t so much as a symbol as the LGTBQ community but as a symbol for ANYONE who finally realizes the truth about themselves once they get out into the bigger world. One thing this series does well is that it shows that people who leave their home and travel need to retain the small hometown ways they were raised with when they go because it is who you are. Denying your home will do nothing but hurt as you will read later.
@36 – I agree strongly that Mat is annoying though the parts we’ve read in EOTW. I’ve read the series many, many times through and I almost never re-read the chapters we covered last week because Mat is too freaking annoying pushing his friends to walk like tourists through a City that Moiraine expressly warned them above was highly dangerous (sufficiently so that they almost refused to go in even when chased by hundreds of Trollocs). Arrgh. You will see shortly whether he keeps being annoying as the EOTW plot moves forward. But….stay tuned for how things develop with Mat as we get deeper into the series. I disagree strongly with your conclusion that he is the “most Light-blinded and infuriating fool in the entire series,” but we’ll need more of the series behind us to discuss why not.
I hated Nynaeve as a young teen. I love her as an adult.
@39 I didn’t know Nynaeve when she was a teen so I can’t judge. As an adult she’s pretty awesome.
@28, 29 – without any initial-y spoilers, I’ll just say it has a lot to do with the color of a dress :)
@40, I think @39 meant when they were a young teen, rather than Nynaeve.
@38, Oh, he does have a lot of character development and a lot of interesting things happen to and around him. I’ve just always found him irksome at best. I think, perhaps, he’s too much like my brother: talented and annoyingly competent at everything, and even when he does something wrong, it turns out right/ for the best. Irksome, infuriating lout.
Just another reason why Jordan (and Brandon too) are great writers: my RL influences and experiences colour my judgements of characters more than their writings.
@@@@@ Dr. Thanatos (#1) I’m so happy to hear that I’m not the only person who loves Nynaeve! I got the impression from the little that I know about the series that she can run a lot of readers the wrong way. I agree that the braid tugging and sniffing is a problem, but I’m gonna blame the narration not the character for that one.
@@@@@ noblehunter (#2) and mp1952 (#4) I definitely have an advantage coming to the series as an adult with lots of experience in the genre and the craft of novel-writing in general. I think it’s one of the things that makes this read so fun; not just that I can have that perspective as a first-time reader but also that fans who have loved the series since the were kids could experience that perspective vicariously through me. I hope you are enjoying it!
@@@@@ RobMRobM (#3) I loved that moment too! Jordan is a really interesting read because I find that the storytelling can get kind of bogged down at times, but when he nails, it, he really nails it. Sometimes a single sentence can illuminate or change everything.
@@@@@princessroxana (#6) Lan and I have a lot in common. :)
@@@@@johndd (#7) Ah-ha! That’s sort of hilarious.
Oh, Nynaeve. How you have vexed me for almost 30 years.
My take, undoubtedly informed by the fact that I first read these chapters when I was 16 or so, is that Nynaeve lies to almost everyone she meets and lies to herself constantly. She will look for any way to justify doing what she wants and to hell with the consequences. This goes on for books and books. As this read through progresses, I’ll try to point out some specific examples. In this chapter she admits to herself that Moiraine’s logic is sound that Egwene is safe, the Dark One wants the boys, no one else. But she “refused to admit the sense of what Moiraine said”. Nynaeve isn’t 16 or 18. She’s about 26. She’s a bully and a liar and isn’t redeemed in my eyes for about half the series. That being said, her moments of awesome are maybe the best of anyone.
@Kelsey Jefferson Barrett (#43) I picked up my copy of TEOTW when it was on the new fiction shelf in 1990. I was 37 years old at the time. So don’t sell yourself short. Your experience in the genre and as a writer gives you insight above and beyond merely starting reading it as an adult!
@Anand (12) When I pointed out in Chapter 2 that the story was going to be super male-centric, a lot of readers were amused, since they knew of all the pov changes and great character work to come. So I was slightly prepped for this. And super glad to see it, of course. I’m looking forward to watching how the pov changes and broadening story change how I felt about the male-centric hero story I was seeing in the early chapters.
@Kogahazan (#13) Oh, so she’s the Leonard McCoy then! That makes perfect sense. No wonder I love her.
I think that you’ve hit on exactly what I was feeling with your explanation about the abstractness of Rand’s character, and thank you for expressing it so clearly. This is, in some respect, a danger that protagonists and chosen one characters can often suffer from very easily in fiction, I think. I have heard similar complaints about characters like Frodo and Harry Potter, and while I don’t think they are strictly true, the danger of defining the hero first and for most by his struggle with his destiny can sometimes get in the way of other character work. Or even if the character work is there, make it less noticeable.
@anthony Pero (#17) Oh, that is a great point and makes so much sense!
@Lisamarie (#23) You make an excellent point about a female character being allowed to be angry. If Nynaeve is the Jessica Jones of WoT I am fine with it, even if it means she yells a lot at people who don’t deserve it.
@Andy (#24) That is really interesting to me, because I got that sense of personal care from her right away. Your comment makes me want to go back when I have a second and reread the Nynaeve bits to see how much of it is in the text and how much of it is me projecting as an older sibling. I do have a tendency to tie the emotion of love to the act of protection on every level.
@tbgh (#32) I mean, how could there not be a lot of angst over it! I was hearing it as Nye-neeve. Haha, it makes me think of how when I read the Black Caldron books when I was little, I pronounced Eilonwy’s name. I was unfamiliar with anything Welsh (hilarious ‘cause Kelsey comes from Wales) and guessed it was Ellen-wee. Didn’t realize the right pronunciation until I was an adult.
@AeronaGreenjoy (#33) I have a thing where I cannot abide any fiction that demonizes wolves. The misunderstanding of them as evil has led to so many problems in the natural world, and the constant use of them as an easy scary baddie just reintroduces and reinforces the prejudice. I am overjoyed to find that WoT not only has them as good but is going to address that many in this world also have mistaken prejudices about them. So. Happy.
@Berthulf (#36) Yeah, I don’t think that it was intentional at all, but golly does it fit perfectly. It’s kind of beautiful to me that we can find these kinds of parallels in characters where the details are very different but the heart of it is the same. If I ever go back to school, I should do my thesis on the universality of repression as explored in genre fiction. It’s such a fascinating subject.
Can I just say I’m so glad you all love Nynaeve and have such interesting observations of her! This comments section is a joy to read! Thank all of you for this, what a great week.
@mp1952 (#45) I am flattered, thank you.
WOW – as a fellow LGBTQ person , i never thought about “learning you can channel ” and coming out. But it is a very apt comparison – I am now goign to have to look to see if anyone else connected the 2
Thanks
@47, I read Nynaeve as ‘Nineve’. I also read Eilonwy as ‘Eylonwy’ how is it supposed to be pronounced?
In all fairness as apex predators Wolves are naturally enemies of Man – another apex predator.
@52: Think you might be right there, that’s how I pronounce them too. I’m not Welsh so not sure about the ‘Ei’, but have been exposed to a fair bit for a Man of Kent and that feels right… Course, Nynaeve could also be Ninim, based on the Irish feel…
@31: If you liked other viewpoints in book 1 and 2 then you’re going to LOOOOVE book 3. It’s got a lot of non-Rand VPs.
@31 And you’ll finally get some awesome Mat VPs.
I always felt that the braid tugging and sniffing related to environmental allergies caused by the Dark One touching the world.
As I looked back through these chapters, there’s some nice world building going on in the background. RJ is a master at that. Shayul Ghul. Traveling. The Amerlyn Seat. The organization of Aes Sedai into “Ajahs,” including red ones who hunt channeling men and evil black ones. Aielman who dislike strangers and live in a harsh place beyond the Spine of the World called the Aiel Waste. The fact that the whole central eastern part of the world is almost entirely unpopulated forest. And Perrin and Egwene are heading to Camelyn, a large City. Interesting stuff.
Really enjoying following along with your read, Kelsey! And I will throw my opinion on the pile regarding your enviable ability to understand the characters and story to which you are just being introduced. Bravo.
Not sure I can say that Nynaeve was always my favourite, but her greatest moments are certainly some of my favourite scenes in the story and I have reread them countless times over the last 3 decades.
One thing I think most people will agree on is that you should be prepared to have your “favourite character” designation change at least a couple times over the course of the series. Among the boys and the girls. Except for Lan. Lan is the unyielding pinnacle of badass warrior grace, honour and style!
Thank you for this great series! I’ve been reading since part 1 and while I haven’t posted, it has really added to my reading experience.
I read the Eye of the World when I was in seventh grade after finding it randomly at a used book sale and it was the first >400-500 page book I ever read. It took me ages to get through but I remember getting hooked after the first Trolloc attack. I never read any of the other WOT books, so after recently getting back into fantasy thanks to A Song of Ice and Fire I thought now was the time to get back into it. I debated starting with book 2, but it had been a long time. I’m glad I started rereading EotW because I realized the only thing that was familiar to me were the Trollocs and the term Aes Sedai (mostly because in the seventh grade I had no idea how to pronounce it…turns out my guess was pretty close to the commonly accepted pronunciation).
After ASOIAF, I was a little apprehensive to move back into the more “traditional” fantasy. Martin made such a point of those books being a subversion of the usual tropes (and he did it so well) that I wasn’t sure if I would enjoy the usual tropes anymore. This story definitely started off with the usual tropes – almost to the point that I really felt it was ripping off LotR a bit too much (something I didn’t pick up in my first read since I hadn’t read LotR yet). As the story moves along, however, I’m seeing that Jordan is subverting the tropes in his own ways. The most obvious is how female characters are handled (which I started to enjoy even more once we got more POV changes). You pointed out that Nynaeve and Perrin’s apprehension to their abilities parallels coming out – I definitely got their insecurity to being perceived as an “other”, but I really didn’t connect to those real world parallels until this entry pointed it out. Science Fiction has the luxury of being able to be a bit more heavy handed in their messages, so to be able to use this as a theme so subtly is impressive. As the book rolls on, I’ve been more and more impressed with Jordan’s writing – as noted above, he can give you pages worth of dense information but sometimes he can completely shift your feelings about the whole world with a line or two. I now see the LotR connections are there to provide that fantasy trope background while Jordan slowly morphs that initial impression into his own world.
Looking forward to the next entry! I hope you go through all the books because having this series around is probably the only way I’m going to get through all 14.
@princessroxana (#52) I mean, who is the ultimate authority on the pronunciations of invented names anyway? I believe Eilonwy is pronounced eye-LON-wee according to Welsh pronunciation rules.
I don’t think wolves are our natural enemies at all. They’re generally very wary of people and are less dangerous to us than, say, bears, at least statistically speaking. I suppose in the case of competing for resources, but mankind has pretty solidly won that battle. And having wolves in an area makes that ecosystem healthier, keeping down deer populations that go out of control and allowing vegetation and other wildlife, which is very good for people!
@Dr Thanatos (#56) Okay, head cannon accepted. That’s amazing. And as someone who suffers from allergies, I am totally prepared to believe they are the work of the Dark One.
@RobMRobM (#57) I agree wholeheartedly. I find it difficult to talk about in the read because of course the information is given in bits and pieces and it’ll be a while before I’ll have an idea of the cohesive toll. Perhaps I should do a post in the future kind of like I did in Week 4, and take a break from progressing to new chapters. I could just do a post on RJ’s world building technique.
@Tonybere (#58) Thank you! I expect you are quite right about the favorite character changing regularly. And I really want to learn more about Lan.
@duga (#59) So glad you’re enjoying it! I’m really enjoying writing the read, and also getting to read everyone’s experiences and observations in the comments. It’s a wonderful community.
@60, I think the point of contention between man and wolves is the issue of our livestock which wolves reasonably enough see as a smorgasbord.
The best way to learn more about Lan’s background is the long version of the New Spring prequel.
Hi, fellow first-time reader here, though I’ve gotten a bunch of chapters ahead of this.
I’m not seeing much of a difference, except that Nynaeve already has years of denied experience behind her by the time she meets someone who tells her how and why she’s different, whereas Perrin immediately has a guide to his experience who won’t let him sweep it under the mental rug.
As for his hesitation, wow, why wouldn’t he hesitate? He’s grown up surrounded by farmers and shepherds; rightly or wrongly*, his community sees wolves as the enemy, especially now that food is growing scarce. He’s also grown up in a world where any man with a supernatural ability can expect to at best be put down before managing to hurt more than a few people. Now he discovers that through no doing of his own, he has a mystical link to a predator he’s been taught to hate. I think he’s totally justified in freaking out and trying to deny it – if anything, more justified than Nynaeve.
*Personally, I agree with the other pro-wolf commenters. But I wouldn’t expect anyone from the Two Rivers to start out on Team Wolf.
@65:
Completely agree with you, it’s exactly how I read his reaction too. What I find more interesting, though, is the very specific lack of discussion by characters on how the wolves were acting strangely around Emond’s Field this last winter. It’s mentioned maybe twice then completely dropped and never raised again. It’s treated so offhanded that it begs the question: were the wolves drawn to Emond’s Field because of Perrin? And is the lack of discourse on this topic a result of the POV characters wanting to avoid such an emotionally – packed – issue?
I always thought their proximity was implicit, but it’s never really tackled as a subject… that I can recall.
There were a lot of wolves because of the bad winter. It isn’t clear if they knew anything about Perrin.
Having only gotten partway through the series, I sort of love Nynaeve, but I agree with @44 that she lies to herself CONSTANTLY, which I find can get a bit irritating. In TFoH, she practically can’t express an attitude without it promptly being shown that she’s being hypocritical about it. I can’t wait for her to develop and mature more and have her moments of awesome, though, seeing as she’s already pretty awesome.
@67: Certainly true from the Emond’s Fielder’s perspective, but nobody else seems to mention the same problems. Anyway, it’s in my headcannon that there were more wolves drawn to Emond’s Field because of a (proto)wolfbrother than just a struggle for food; the wolves we encounter certainly don’t seem to struggle, though admittedly, they’re packs hold different terrain.
I never really got on the Nynaeve bandwagon. Just too much braid-pulling and bullying for me. Some times she comes across as a incredibly competent leader. Others she seems petty and just mean. I don’t dislike her, and she shines in some scenes down the road. Just…meh.
I didn’t care for Egwene much at first either and she became my absolute favorite later on. So, go figure.
As for Perrin? He just wants to be a blacksmith. No, really, I’m just a blacksmith. Really really really, I’m just a blacksmith. Ad nauseum.
Much ado has been made over the years by those who think Jordan was misogynistic and mistreated the women in this world. I never got that, still don’t, since almost every character of power and influence was a woman. I do think that Nynaeve got a less than fair shake however. It’s like he twisted her personality to fit the current scene. YMMV
I think I understand Egwene’s behavior toward Perrin. He’s armed and has some training in using his weapon. She has neither so she must depend on him to protect her. Logically it’s stupid to allow your protector to wear himself out walking when there’s a likelihood of him needing to fight. Secondly Perrin has experience traveling and in woodcraft making it sensible to follow his lead and trust his judgement. Of course none of this means Egwene has to play passive damsel and she doesn’t. Perrin doesn’t grasp that she’s deferring to his experience rather than accepting him as her leader. There’s a difference.
I’m pretty sure nothing I’m going to say is a spoiler up till this point in the book. I don’t think the bond between Nynaeve and Egwene is a magical bond. I think it’s a sisterly bond. Also, I’m pretty sure you skipped it in your description, but if I remember it correctly, Lan was surprised that Nynaeve was able to sneak up on them without him noticing. Moirane was the one who noticed. I think that she explained or will shortly that her father taught her to hunt and track when she was younger. That’s how she was trying to track them before finding these two. Also, there just aren’t that many routes out of the Two Rivers. I’m sure she could have followed the tracks, but Baerlon was the straight shot out of town and they would definitely gone through Taren Ferry, so I think it was more logical deductions and tracking skills than it was magical bond, though I want state for a fact that their isn’t one. That’s just not ever how it came across to me. I never noticed any particular bond, throughout the series from an Aes Sedai healing someone.
“and dares you to say “naive Nynaeve” three times fast” – hehe. but with all her suspecious behavior you mention it’s a wrong statement as she is everything but naive Nynaeve hehe.
I agree that she is more characterised than many others. And that she IS great though I have a pickle with the constant arrogant stubborn behaviour from so many fem characters that it influenced my loving her character too much. And I also agree that it takes a very very very very very (you know, and so on) long time for her… ahh changes.
I heard some complaints about RJ not being able to write romance. Well can’t spoil here, but with Nyneave he has moments that just touched me deep. Something I didn’t see in other authors that much(for example Sanderson OR Tolkien pull off in a dialogue. Yes yes Tolkien’s writing style itself is sweeping you away, but dialogue between characters with the romance? Not that it’s bad, really but RJ did it way better in my opinion. *ducking and taking cover*)
@73 First off, kudos on the handle. May the Schwartz be with you also.
Second, there’s not much opportunity for romantic dialogue in the structure of LOTR.
And in Silmallirion? There’s a major part about a Human (someone with a capital B) and a elf, and them trying to get the gems from Melkor. There Tolkien had the opportunity, but… as I said
Beren tries to ‘protect’ Tinuviel and needs a talking to by his dog to stop that nonsense. I don’t recall a lot of direct dialogue in the Sil.
yes, but that’s what I meant. There was this Romeo and Juliet kind of romance between them and their relationship has ever since been remembered that even after decades no one counted, Aragorn and Arwen were being compared to them. So there is big romance stuff in Tolkien’s books but he never fleshed them out especially with dialogue which is maybe one of the harder things to an author trying autenthic romantic dialogue. But even when there’s no dialogue RJ excels, just look at SPOILER!!! SPOILER!!! – Rand and Elain when they first kissed with her butterflys in her stomach and she getting all dizzy while catching air. That was beautifully described. But once again I want to remind you that I ducked and found cover so you can’t actually come after me . :) (kidding. By the way how do you hide the spoilers? I never figured that out)
Note: Spoiler whited out by moderator. Because moderator is nice like that. (Hide spoilers by selecting the text, then changing the text color to white.)